‘Our Boys’ Co-Creators And Friends Joseph Cedar & Tawfik Abu Wael Try To Make Sense Of The Israel-Hamas War: “We Are Now In A New And Extreme Situation”

EXCLUSIVE: On October 9, 2023, two days after the massacre in the south of Israel which has led to an ongoing conflict between Israel and Hamas-led Palestinian militant groups, Oscar-nominated Jewish writer-director Joseph Cedar called his Palestinian friend, fellow writer-director Tawfik Abu Wael. The two had co-created and co-directed the television series Our Boys for HBO (along with Hagai Levi). That series recreated the events surrounding the murder of Palestinian teenager Mohammed Abu Khedeir in 2014, which ultimately led to an outbreak of war in Gaza that year. 

Just four years after the friends worked on this critically acclaimed series together, the October 7 massacre occurred, echoing striking similarities of the real-life events depicted in the 2019 miniseries but with the roles reversed. 

Here, Deadline can reveal to you an exclusive conversation between these two Tel Aviv-based industry friends who discuss at length the polarization of their ethnicity in Israel and how they are battling to make sense of things after the horrific events that have occurred in the country and in Gaza since October 7. More than 1,200 people were killed by the terror attack on that day while there are estimates that more than 23,000 people have been killed in the Israeli response.

Cedar and Abu Wael, who are both repped by Arik Kneller’s The Kneller Agency in Israel, reflect on antisemitism and pro-Palestine protests as well as how the dire situation in the region will impact Israeli and Arab-language content globally.  

JOSEPH CEDAR: I called you then [October 9] because I wanted to gain some perspective, to know what people are saying on the other side. I couldn’t understand how this happened. I needed urgently to hear some inside information from the side trying to kill me. And I assumed that you are following and are connected to sources I can’t access. But then, I found out many in our industry had already called you. Everyone had this sudden need to talk to their Arab friend.

TAWFIK ABU WAEL: There’s was a feeling of crisis, that the world had been turned upside-down, that there is no hope, no coexistence and there never will be. And from that place, people were trying to reclaim their humanity. I’ve been living in Tel Aviv for more than half my life, and this is the first time that I have ever felt fear. I am afraid and ashamed to speak Arabic in public.

CEDAR: That’s exactly what religious Jewish friends of mine in New York have been telling me. The ones who are visibly Jewish. That, for the first time in their lives, they feel uneasy in New York City. That they’ve been riding the subway and seeing many more young people wearing keffiyehs and they feel as if people are staring at them with hostility. So, I understand your fear. But why are you ashamed?

ABU WAEL: I’ve noticed that I am constantly apologetic. I look at what happened, and I say to myself, ‘These are my people, this is my culture.’ I belong to this group and certain members of it are capable of committing such atrocities. I look at the videos from October 7th and I can tell who is with Hamas, who is with the Popular Front, who is with the Islamic Jihad, and who is a civilian caught up in the violence. And this knowledge stirs in me a feeling of shame and estrangement. 

I cling to my Palestinian-Arab-Muslim identity, even though I am an atheist. And suddenly, all is undermined. I ask myself, what does it mean to be a Palestinian? What does it mean to be an Arab? For a month, I felt paralyzed. I fantasized about going back and doing another take, as if life were a film set, as if we could still fix this. I have always believed Hamas was a death project. It is a religious fascist movement; I don’t even consider it a nationalist movement as it has nothing to offer the Palestinian people. The only thing it has to offer its own people, is death. And you are left to watch this all, helpless. You keep asking yourself: Who actually represents the Palestinians? If not Hamas and not the Palestinian Authority, then who? It feels as if your entire identity is crumbling, and you have to pick up the pieces.

CEDAR: That’s interesting, because I think the Muslims protesting all over the world right now don’t feel any of that. They feel that Hamas does represent the Palestinians, they are not ashamed of Hamas. Maybe this is a feeling that is only true for Palestinians in Israel who do not support Hamas. 

ABU WAEL: The point-of-view of those on the outside is nostalgic. It’s the feeling that nothing can be done against the injustices of Israel or against history. 1948. 1967. The ongoing occupation. What is left then besides identifying with those who fight against Israel? But the goal of Hamas – “Let me die with the Philistines” – is neither realistic nor rational. The way I see it, Hamas uses the Palestinian issue to promote religious, messianic ideas much like the messianic Jews, who are detached from reality. 

I even remember a quote from Mahmoud al-Zahar, a co-founder of Hamas, who said “For us, Palestine is like a toothpick for cleaning our teeth.” The way he sees it, Islam will come into the world and rid it of injustice, like the communists. Hamas claims it can solve the world’s problems by establishing an Islamic empire. On the other hand, there is an air of patriotism here in Israel that automatically rejects the other, that doesn’t want to see what is going on in Gaza. Sometimes I feel like crying out, “Can’t you see? Do you realize people in Gaza are walking around wondering, ‘When am I going to die?’”

Meanwhile, the Israelis are in denial. They don’t want to know. They spout slogans like ‘Flatten Gaza.’ Near my house here in Tel Aviv there is a sign that reads ‘Victory Means Zero Civilians in Gaza.’ In other words, genocide. I am overcome with helplessness. There is no sanity, no middle ground. This is not a world I want to live in. I am not a political person, but my entire existence is built on co-existence. 

I believe the solution can only come from an Arab-Israeli or Palestinian-Jewish movement. There is no justice in the world, and that is true of Israel, too. Israel is the powerful party – it is in control, it is the oppressor, and the Palestinians are the victims. But the solution is not black or white. I will always strive to see the Palestinian victim overcome himself and adopt the ideas of Gandhi. Yes, there is a blockade on Gaza, a brutal blockade, no food, no fuel. But if 10,000 Gazan boys and girls stood at the fence and released balloons of love and peace for the children of Israel, that would be more effective than any rocket. 

CEDAR: Images like that were completely shattered on October 7th. My daughter works for an organization naive enough to believe in coexistence. But after the 7th, they were told to focus only on Israelis. Because you can’t even talk right now. Our leaders and your leaders, they don’t believe in it. The leaders the Israeli people have chosen would rather distribute weapons to shoot down those balloons. Here, in our democracy, a majority voted in a government with ministers who follow in the footsteps of Meir Kahane. And whether that has to do with our political system and the demands of forming a coalition or not, the fact is that the administration that represents us has placed the Ministry of National Security and the responsibility over the settlements in Judea and Samaria in the hands of the most extreme figures Israeli politics have ever seen. 

That is where my helplessness comes in. This is where you and I overlap. The Palestinians feel doomed because Hamas has pushed them into this cycle, and we, as Israelis, pay a terrible price because of our own government and there is nothing we can do about it. We can’t breathe. We can’t think of anything else. And it’s hard for filmmakers, who are used to thinking anything is possible. If an idea is good enough—we find a way to make it happen. Very few filmmakers I know will accept ‘no’ for an answer and give up. 

But now, I am faced with a reality where there is nothing I can do. Not a thing. And when it comes to Israel’s response to the massacre, the momentum seems unstoppable. All the sane people, the people who understand strategy, the super sophisticated people, our “start-up nation,” no one knows how to slow this momentum of madness that is only going to make things worse—and cannot be stopped. It is a wrecking ball, the kind that can destroy entire buildings with a single swing, while we are left to fend it off with a ping-pong paddle. 

I haven’t always felt this way. For example, the way Israel handled the killers of [Mohammed] Abu Khdeir gave me hope. I did not feel helpless there. I felt that the Israeli judicial system recognized the severity of the crime. And despite public sentiment demanding revenge, they were able to prevent most of it, and what they could not prevent, they were strong enough to arrest and put on trial. 

I came out of the research we did for Our Boys feeling that most of the establishment and decisionmakers in Israel operated in accordance with a moral compass and a political conscience that prevented the catastrophe from getting worse.

ABU WAEL: My helplessness is reflected in the way that my whole life, my bubble, changed without me doing a thing. I never raised a finger. Even under the best of circumstances, the existence of a Palestinian Arab in Tel Aviv is unnatural. And now, in this extreme atmosphere of a witch-hunt against Arabs, what are the odds that anyone would want to produce content in Arabic?

CEDAR: Or in Hebrew. As Israeli filmmakers, we have reason to fear the golden age of exporting Israeli content to the world is coming to an end. It seems today that Israelis cannot criticize their country’s military actions without facing accusations of denying the massacre that happened here. It is understandable, in light of the atrocities of October 7th, but it adds to the sense of helplessness, because even on the realistic left – my political community – there is no room for conversation about what Israel is doing in Gaza. 

Everyone agrees we must win the war but how do we win? What does winning mean? Nobody knows. No one can explain how the deaths of 20,000 Palestinians make life in Israel any better, but no one can say that out loud right now.  

ABU WAEL: We must oppose violence. Any violence. And there is no justification for violent struggle. I am not a military person but what I see Israel doing is an act of revenge. I don’t see a plan in place for anything else.  

CEDAR: Yes, revenge backed with absolute Israeli consensus. But we’re calling it “deterrence” these days. That makes it sound a little less barbaric and more strategic, but there is very little difference between revenge and deterrence, especially when one considers that historically nothing has deterred Hamas in the past.

ABU WAEL: That’s true, and that is what scares me. My friends – people I know to be humane – seem to be finding pleasure in the destruction. It’s a dreadful feeling and you can see yourself losing your sanity to it. I think Hamas has successfully turned this conflict into a religious war with no room for compromise. 

CEDAR: So, where do we go from here? 

ABU WAEL: The biggest challenge of living here is preserving our humanity. They will not take that away from me. I will always believe in preserving our humanity. 

CEDAR: I’m sorry, Tawfik, but they have already taken your humanity. 

ABU WAEL: Who did?

CEDAR: Hamas.

ABU WAEL: Just as I can say to a Palestinian that you can’t think of all Israelis as a monolith, you can’t think of all Palestinians as a monolith either. That is a fascist way of thinking, and I won’t accept it. I look at Israelis as human beings. I will not hold all Israelis responsible for what their government does. 

CEDAR: When I say Hamas robbed you of your humanity, I mean it in the sense of how our options are limited now. Hamas’ biggest accomplishment is that there is no way to return to a quiet life. Their success is not tactical. It is not that they were able to break down fences, attack military bases, kill and kidnap civilians. It is in that they’ve create an event that, like World War II, changes everything. 

We are now in a new and extreme situation, and that is the source of my helplessness. But something you said gave me a sliver of hope. In Israel, we have a ray of light – scant and dim as it is – but light, nonetheless. And that is our ability to topple our government and replace it with capable people, with a saner moral outlook. We hold on to the hope that, once this is over, we can replace this government. We were on track for constant growth on the religious right, both on a demographic and political level.

I have hope that once the fire dies down, the political protest or perhaps even a simple election, will replace the current government with an administration that will be brave enough to bring forth a political initiative that differs from everything we’ve seen in the past 20 years. 

You’ve told me, that the only people who can bring Hamas down are the Palestinians themselves and that gives me hope.  

ABU WAEL: Absolutely. Any external force that tries to uproot Hamas can only achieve this in the short term. The idea of Hamas has roots that run deep. It is the hope of the desperate. Those who have nothing left so they feel they can at least sacrifice themselves for a worthy cause. That is what Hamas has to offer. But even if Hamas cannot be totally eradicated, then it must be reformed.

CEDAR: What makes you think that is possible?

ABU WAEL: I look at the history of the Muslim Brotherhood, and I see two factions there. There is the al-Banna faction, and the Sayyid Qutb faction. Qutb was a secular man who found religion and brought with him the Jihadist idea. So, the Muslim Brotherhood is not a monolith, either. The classic example can be found here, in Israel. The Muslim Brotherhood have a perfectly pragmatic faction that speaks in a sane manner, like Mansour Abbas, the Palestinian leader on behalf of the Muslim Brotherhood, a member of the Israeli parliament who opposes Hamas. Morocco also has the Muslim Brotherhood in its government, and they are closer to the secular side than to Hamas. 

So, I don’t take the loudest voices to heart. But look at the reaction from Arabs in Israel. Look at the reaction from Arabs in the West Bank. You’re not seeing protests, or a violent uprising. If anything, people have clung to sanity. Despite the anger, despite the frustration and despite the rage. That gives me hope.

CEDAR: It seems hope comes from the fact that things are so bad now, they can only get better.

ABU WAEL: I believe in that.

CEDAR: I fear that, in Israel, we have not hit rock bottom yet and things could get worse. Our reaction in Gaza comes from the hope that victory is still possible and not from accepting the painful reality.

ABU WAEL: So long as Israelis do not accept the fact that they cannot win, there will be no hope. Not for Israelis, and not for Palestinians and because victory means genocide for the other side.

CEDAR: I agree. But that can only happen under a new regime. The current leaders on both sides cannot accept defeat, and so they sell their people the illusion of victory. When you look at us, do you think we can replace our leaders?

ABU WAEL: I am not quite as optimistic on that matter. For a few years now, Israel has been striving to become an Arab state, to fit into the Middle East: to be nationalistic, messianic and corrupt. What is the judicial reform all about? Ultimately, it is about becoming an Arab state, with a supreme leader – in this case [Benjamin] Netanyahu – who cannot be criticized, who is never wrong. But every dictator has their base and people who will stick with them through thick and thin. That is what truly frightens me here – that Netanyahu has his base and even if he destroys the country, they will rise from the rubble and cheer him on.

CEDAR: What do you think about this fashionable Western trend since October 7^th, of the unconditional support of the Palestinians and Hamas? 

ABU WAEL: It enrages me because it comes from people who have the privilege of viewing reality from a broader perspective. I’d expect people who don’t live here to protest violence of all kinds—hatred, racism, antisemitism and Islamophobia. These people have received the finest education – they get to live somewhere else, far from the heart of the crisis. They don’t live inside the pressure and madness like we do. They haven’t got a sword hanging over their heads. When I walk down the street—I am afraid. And when you meet an Arab—you are afraid. 

They could have said something different, but instead all that remains is propaganda on both sides. No matter what you say, you will be criticized. Certainly, for what we are doing here, people will say I am promoting Zionists propaganda just as others will say you are promoting Palestinian propaganda. But we have lost all nuance. All that left is the propaganda game and people play it like zombies. I refuse to play that game. If you attack the Jew merely because he is a Jew, then I too am a Jew.  

I’ve heard you, in the past, say you are not overly worried about antisemitism. Does that hold true today?  

CEDAR: I’ve lived in Israel for most of my life and I’ve always considered antisemitism a thing of the past – something people used as an excuse when they were rejected by some prestigious film festival. Even when I sensed something that may have an antisemitic odor, it was never truly threatening to me. 

These days, I can’t help but feel that antisemitism is a virus living dormant in every non-Jew, that emerges at a moment of moral crisis. We are in a moral crisis and this virus is now breaking out. Today I realize Jews are a persecuted minority and that I am a persecuted minority. No matter how much power and controls Jews may gain in certain areas, they will always be a tiny minority and a convenient scapegoat, and I feel in danger. It used to be that, when people said antisemitism is alive and kicking, I’d dismiss them as paranoid or manipulative. But now, it only adds to the feeling of helplessness.

ABU WAEL: But it’s not like us to be helpless. Some of my optimism comes from the Jewish people. When you were on the verge of extinction, you found the greatest strength within you, and you built your own country. It came at our expense, that is true, but from within the pain, you were able to come together and create a new reality.